the "women of the internet" webring was created by and for terfs (and that's okay...ish)

[sinew]

disclaimers

• because i know folks from either side of the issue will want to know: i'm anti-terf. however, terf rhetoric or my stance on it is not what this article is about
• what this article is about is the lack of transparency the mods of this webring have displayed regarding their intentions in creating the ring in the first place, and the unknowing association some users have made
• i don't condone the harassment of any parties involved, even members of the ring who are actual terfs and the mods who created it
• i'm directly quoting posts, so slurs will be present

again, THIS ARTICLE IS NOT TO DISCUSS RHETORIC. IT'S ABOUT LACK OF TRANSPARENCY

okay, now that that's out of the way... as the title of this article says, the "women of the internet" webring isn't just for adult (18+) women. at face value, it seems like that would be it's purpose, until you find out there's a secret criteria for applicants, and the history of it's creation

on the farm

let's provide some context. there is a channel-like image board pseudo forum (think 4chan and others) known as lolcow.farm, and on this forum are various boards and threads to discuss a number of topics, one of them being old web and neocities. lolcow can be... controversial, due to usage of problematic language and the userbase often aligning with certain beliefs. however, like terf rhetoric, that controversy is not what this article is about. i'm just addressing that i'm aware of these controversies, and i'm explaining where i'm getting my information from

inb4 accusations of cowtipping (for those not in the know, this is the phrase used for when someone off-site gets meta and discusses the farm - usually a specific user, a "cow" - being "tipped off" that they're being discussed or directly baited in for direct engagement, hence the cutesy pun), the primary thread i'm referencing is old and long enough to be locked. wonder of wonders, i've even participated in that thread. (you can probably even tell what nonna i am if you squint really hard.) the thread was kind of notorious for a while, and nowhere near a secret. speak not the old lolcow thread to me, witch, i was there when it was written, etc etc

honestly i just went there to see if dreamie came back under an alt, and while i was playing catch-up with the thread as a whole i found out the history of this webring

all that said, all of this information was publicly stated, just not on neocities or in the webring info itself

here's the link to the thread if you want to view any of the posts yourself

i'm also not the first person to address this webring, and ironically some of those other users have been mentioned in the thread itself for it, so uh. happy capping, i guess, nonnies?

only those with udders who can birth calves are real heifers

so while this article isn't about terf rhetoric, that rhetoric in itself needs to be explained to provide context for how we even slid down the slippery slope and got to where we currently are. "terf" stands for "trans-exclusionist radical feminist." translated, they're feminists who believe that trans women do not count as women, due to biology. with that context, a webring titled "women of the internet" takes on a different meaning once you realize that from a terf perspective, it's intended for cis (non-trans) women (and more, but more on that in a minute)

out to pasture

while i'm not going to comb through 1,200 comments to get every single post regarding the webring, there were posts that came up with a ctrl+f search and whatever was visible after that. i doubt i got it all, but i'm pretty sure i got enough to confirm things. things aren't inherently posted chronologically, but where i could i tried to keep them in order

discussion of creation

Anonymous 10/13/22 (Thu) 01:54:10 AM No. 1372776>>1372885
I'm still thinking about the female-only webring, nonita who talked about making one on terfchan

Anonymous 01/05/23 (Thu) 03:21:06 PM No. 1464290>>1464401>>1465355
Are there any female only (so no mtfs/tifs/ they/thems) webrings that exist? I want to join one or create one.

Anonymous 02/21/23 (Tue) 01:34:05 AM No. 1505410>>1505653
I remember anons were talking about making a webring when the thread was started. It's been five months now and we've heard fuck all from the original posters. I've only made and maintained one webring, but I'm down to make one for farmers if any of you are still interested. My only question is, how should I go about organizing this? I very specifically want to make an adults with jobs webring, like >>1321156 suggested. Any ideas?

Anonymous 02/21/23 (Tue) 10:47:59 AM No. 1505653
>>1505410
I have never joined a webring (let alone hosted one) but I’m down to join it. A few others and I discussed it in a group we made awhile back. There is definitely still interest.

terms, coding, and hiding in plain... site?

these are more in-general terf rhetoric, but they tie in to certain terminology and how it's used among terfs. the relevance is how some of what's discussed is actually used as criteria for admission or denial to be a member of the webring, and a tendency towards coded language. i've bolded the most relevant passages

Anonymous 7 months ago No. 1515794>>1516026>>1516148
on another note, how do you find terfy neocities (do they even exist)? i tried to use "terf" as a keyword like an autist and of course it lead me to "TERFS DNI" neocities kek

Anonymous 03/06/23 (Mon) 05:17:23 AM No. 1516026>>1516129>>1516899>>1517599
>>1515794
AYRT, yes terfy neocities do exist but they are unfortunately hard to find. What I usually do is only follow and interact with webmasters who do not actively list pronouns, fake or self diagnosed mental illnesses, etc.

Anonymous 03/06/23 (Mon) 10:23:29 AM No. 1516148>>1516192>>1516899
>>1515794
I look for webmasters that have "female" in their about mes. That's usually a sign that they are terfy kek. I have "female" in my about me and have noticed other women that have the same follow me.

Anonymous 03/06/23 (Mon) 12:19:37 PM No. 1516192
>>1516148
I do the same, I also wrote sex instead of gender. My site is pretty much an archive to save my edits and such, so I don't really have anything terfy, but I hope that part on my about can ring a bell to other like-minded people.

this post in particular expresses being "inconspicuous," ie not upfront about being radfem. this is relevant because it sets the precedent of not being transparent

Anonymous 03/06/23 (Mon) 11:18:51 AM No. 1516164
I'm considering making a site that will only follow radfem and terf aligned sites. It will be inconspicuous and just a way for Nonnas to see who the site is following to know who's not a gendie

Anonymous 03/07/23 (Tue) 07:37:09 PM No. 1517599
>>1516026
Yep, no pronouns or "trans rights" blinkies is usually a pretty good sign on Neocities

it Begins

note that the "something for us" is the webring. then remember that the "us" is terfs. also note the use of "female" and recall the previous context of using that word over woman... yet the webring is named "women of the internet"

Anonymous 03/06/23 (Mon) 03:02:14 PM No. 1516389>>1516395>>1516899>>1517187
File (hide): 1678132934231.png (281.12 KB, 693x545, bZVe5Hz.png)
Nonnas I am working on something for us! Please let me know if you have any suggestions at all, I want to make something useful and good for all the female webmasters out there.

then the mod finished it, and posted the link to it, so there's zero doubt that it's the exact same webring

Anonymous 03/07/23 (Tue) 12:10:36 PM No. 1517284>>1517290>>1517365>>1517566>>1518227>>1519033>>1519470>>1520647>>1524910
File (hide): 1678209035925.png (257.57 KB, 704x900, 4kcr9Nb.png)
Hello nonnas! I finished the webring site. Please let me know if I should add or remove anything. Applications will be checked for daily so please join!

https://womenoftheinternet.neocities.org/[Archived Copy]

the site was well-received, but someone expressed that because even then it wasn't flat out stated on the webring itself that it's intended for terfs, that undesirables may want to join. "moids" and "troons" being lolcow slang for men and trans people

Anonymous 03/07/23 (Tue) 12:22:08 PM No. 1517290>>1517296
>>1517284
the design is awesome and relaxing but I fear advertising the site as "women of the internet" is bound to interact mouids and troons

the founder of the webring confirms she will check for... well. read the post. one of the words used is a slur for trans people, scrotes being a slang term for trans women specifically, and pronouns just. being people that list pronouns, i guess? (which... cis women can do)

Anonymous 03/07/23 (Tue) 12:30:15 PM No. 1517296>>1517349
>>1517290
I thought about that! But every application will be checked as thoroughly as we can for trannies/pronouns/scrotes. Let them seethe, we are allowed to openly state ourselves as women. If the concern is hate mail, the mods can handle the stuff sent to the mod mail just fine. If you don't want to receive hate for being a terf then maybe don't join because it's always a possibility, unfortunately.

this post discusses the idea that "trans" and "women" are separate

Anonymous 03/07/23 (Tue) 01:34:57 PM No. 1517349
>>1517296
There's a trans webring, so if anyone says anything about a female webring just say that and ask about their thoughts on it. Double standards. If they say it's dismissing trans, say they're dismissing women.

this post indicates that anyone joining the webring - which, again, is not stated to be for terfs and cis women, but just women - would be "trolling" and "lying" if they're trans or a tra; "tra" stands for "trans rights activist." which, again, a cis woman could be

small disclaimer on this one: i'm aware this person has my typing style, so while i figure it should be obvious she and i are not the same person, i'll clarify that no, this was not me, even though i have participated in the thread

Anonymous 03/07/23 (Tue) 06:47:35 PM No. 1517566
>>1517284
it's great! love the design and the widget. i'm sure some trannies/TRAs will try to troll and lie but we can always kick them out later and warn others. will apply as soon as my site is up!

the issue

and here is where my primary issue with all of this lies. while initially i imagine that some members are actual terfs... again, because of the attempts at this being like, a secret society or something, there's an assumption made that members inherently are. "farmers" being a term for other people in the thread. what's really important to note here is the assumption that future members would be terfs as well

Anonymous 03/08/23 (Wed) 01:21:57 PM No. 1518227>>1518428
>>1517284
I love seeing the list update with sites I would have guessed were farmers! Can't wait to watch it grow

yet another assumption that a member must be a terf by basis of being a member

Anonymous 03/15/23 (Wed) 06:29:07 PM No. 1524612
i just found out through the webring that one of my friends on another blogging website is based and undeluded kek here i was thinking she was a TRA. i'm so happy and relieved

these surprises may be from members who folks wouldn't peg as terfs... but like. hear me out: what if those "surprises" saw the widget on someone else's site, not in this thread, and joined without knowing this webring is for terfs? what if they just passed the vibe check but don't agree? what if finding out this webring is for terfs gave those members a few surprises?

Anonymous 03/08/23 (Wed) 04:13:02 PM No. 1518428
>>1518227
Same, but it gave me a few surprises too. I'm glad we finally have a webring for women, thanks you OP!

so based on all of this, i think there's no denial that this webring was founded by terfs, for terfs. but i think we can also agree that because they've tried to skirt around that intent, that it is likely there are members who joined without having any earthly idea of what this webring is actually for. speaking of which...

back in the city

another webmaster who i like to consider a friend has discussed this webring, which is how i myself initially heard of it. at that time, i thought perhaps she was looking too much into it, and that it was unfortunate that terf rhetoric could make something as simple as "a webring for women" seem sus to others just by existing. after all, for the nth time - there's nothing about it being for cis terfs in it's description or rules. but where there's smoke, there's fire. i apologize to my friend for not believing 😔

i've since, of course, been updated on this thread about the truth, and i'm relieved i hadn't joined when in the past i had a mind to. and that's what upsets me; i don't care that terfs have a webring. do i agree with the rhetoric? no. and that's what's so insidious about this: they're not honest about it. if i had joined, i would have been associated with something that actively goes against my own ideals, unwittingly, because the people who run it have actively concealed it. and then i think back to my friend, and how her perception of me could have been colored in a way i would not have wanted or intended

when i say "by and for terfs, and that's okay...ish" i mean that it's a free internet. even if i don't like the rhetoric, folks can have their webring for it. but pretending it's anything but what it really is puts a super bad taste in my mouth, and i imagine other people's who otherwise would not have wanted to be associated with it if they'd been aware of the truth

it's cowardly, actually. at the very least believe in your own politics enough to state them out loud, no less trying to use coded language and thereby getting other unrelated people involved because you were too... what? i'm actually not entirely sure what the point of not being honest is because i'm not in that frame of mind. is it to avoid harassment? if that's the case then congrats on opening other people up to harassment for sentiments they might not even share

in fairness a lot of users aren't aware of the situation, hence this post, so i guess it can be said that there was a certain amount of flying under the radar. just not enough that i buy into the idea that things are hush-hush for the sake of actually protecting anybody. after all, i and others saw the posts, lol. and because they're still there, i don't see the purpose in denying it or beating around the bush. keep it on the dl... except in a thread in a public image board

i've already encountered at least one member who didn't realize what this webring was really for, and they expressed shock and guilt about having joined. but it's not a user's error: it's on the mods for not being transparent about it

this webring is for women, but only a very specific type of woman who womans the way we want her to

so again, this isn't to discuss terf rhetoric, but unfortunately it's difficult to extricate when the criteria for joining a webring that doesn't even list that criteria includes doing things terfs find taboo

if the webring is intended for adult women, then that should be it, right? you're an adult, you're a woman, you're accepted. then the the most blatant secret criteria is being a cis woman. but it doesn't stop there: you can't even be in support of trans people, or post pronouns, as we've seen in some of the posts, or have a different sexuality. it's important to note the person in question is an actual member of the webring at the time of writing

ie, even if you do get in, you might not woman right enough

Anonymous 03/12/23 (Sun) 11:03:51 AM No. 1521781>>1521786>>1522107>>1522171>>1522174>>1522282
File (hide): 1678633431239.png (3.06 KB, 232x213, 18934748.png)
>>1520650
Heteroromantic demisexual? Why the fuck was this MOGAItard let in?

Anonymous 03/16/23 (Thu) 05:57:59 PM No. 1525388
>>1525339
No idea who they're referencing. Vencake is a mogai tranny apologist loser but she still calls herself "cis."

my issue here is the hypocrisy. claiming you want a space just for women, then proceeding to shit on those women for not fitting into your box of what women should be like. idk what vencake knows but i imagine if she were aware of all of this she might not be as cool with being on this members list. the webring is for women but even being cis gets you scare quotes

so you agree?

you should be aware of what you could be associated with when you sign up for a webring? but to prepare for that you need to first be informed of what the webring is for?

Anonymous 10/11/23 (Wed) 08:51:10 AM No. 1723100>>1723159>>1723308
I came across a new web ring for free speech randomly. I poked around thecozy.cat and saw that she made a web ring after being declined from other ones for her views. Daintyeco wrote a blog post about her and how the small web needs to protect le small web from bigots (https://daintyeco.smol.pub/webrevivalharmfulideaspart2) so I thought maybe some nonnies who also believe in free speech would be interested. Though she IS a republican retard who gives some qanon stuff some credit kek!
https://freespeechwebring.neocities.org/[Archived Copy]

i feel you nonna, that almost happened to me with women of the internet

Anonymous 10/11/23 (Wed) 01:20:27 PM No. 1723312
>>1723159
Ntayrt I considered it too until I looked into her politics. It's annoying enough to be labeled as a "bigot" because I want to be amongst other women but imagine being labeled as a rightoid conspiracy theorist too. Yuck.

Anonymous 10/11/23 (Wed) 02:24:58 PM No. 1723397
>>1723159
Yeah, the webring seems like a good idea in theory, but in practice people are quick to associate all of the normal people with the bad apples and think they’re one and the same. I mean look at the Yesterweb webring, they ended up attracting all of the marxist trannies and now a lot of people think everyone that was on there were like that.
Hell, people on Neoshitties will go after others for having 88x31 buttons of sites that have anything remotely speaking against their shitty ideologies. Everyone seems to really love guilt by association over there.

but wait, there's more!

even in the thread itself there's denial about what the actual intent was, or how it's a problem that the webring does not say it's intended for cis women

Anonymous 7 months ago No. 1524573>>1524773
>>1524114
"A webring ran by women! How dare they identify as biological women! Unfollow them!" Real life must be really hard for them.

this post also does not see the irony that it not explaining itself clearly is exactly the problem. i don't know if macaque merely came to this conclusion simply because the webring is "for women," but given that at this point i and you as a reader have seen this thread, i'm inclined to agree macaque did as well. there's such a strange disconnect with thinking someone's just "assuming" your webring is for terfs when you don't mention anything about terf ideology... when it's been publicly discussed in the very thread you're participating in

"gee, i wonder how someone can assume that the webring that was created by and for terfs could be assumed to be run by terfs. it must be because the user thinks "woman" and "female" are evil words" (i was trying to avoid being snarky in this article, but frankly these ones were just way too lacking any modicum of self-awareness)

Anonymous 03/15/23 (Wed) 11:27:53 AM No. 1524377>>1524677>>1524773
>>1524114
I like how there's no mention of terf OR trans ideology and that's the conclusion Macaque came to because the words "woman" and "female" are so evil.

Anonymous 03/15/23 (Wed) 08:29:14 PM No. 1524677>>1525458
>>1524377
yeah i genuinely wonder how they came to the conclusion that it exclusively follows TERFs lol, isn't there only one site that mentions trannies at all? anyway.

to conclude, what macaque said was right on the money: be careful of what you associate yourself with!

and to the mods of women of the internet: i don't care that you're terfs. run your webring and find your kin. just be honest about what it's actually for so the women who don't adhere to that rhetoric can pass. save our time and your own. idk who can reasonably deny it's scummy to continue to allow women to join and be associated with rhetoric that they may not share because you lie by omission

very unexpected update

this post wasn't even up five minutes before it appeared over there, apparently. i had the threads open because i was, you know. writing this post lol

i figure i'll address this. the farms are not famous from this post, this very post said several times the farms have already been known on neocities, and that the webring has been mentioned by a few other members as well. hell, it's in the cap of this post that was posted on the farms 😭 i even prefaced that i figured this would end up there, that's what i meant by "happy capping." at least read what you post about so you're not being redundant for the other nonnies

Anonymous 10/18/23 (Wed) 06:11:49 AM No. 1730141
File (hide): 1697623909486.jpg (304.09 KB, 1399x819, Screenshot_2.jpg)
We made it nonnies, we're famous!
https://neocities-users.dreamwidth.org/1715.html[Archived Copy]
And correct me if I'm wrong but this isn't just a terf webring and because of that it isn't presented as such, it's a webring for biological women, terfy or not.

also... yeah. this nonnie is wrong. so there's no confusion, here's a link to a live page from the very webring we're talking about, and here's a cap making no mention of "biological" women. just "like-minded women," while conveniently not indicating what "like-minded" means. it's almost as if the coded language like that and the lack of transparency is what this entire thing is about or something. if only we had an article literally quoting posts from the thread about how the webring was made by and for terfs to prove it isn't just a terf webring 😔



case in point, i stand by what i've said in this post

i guess as a final disclaimer, while i've participated over there, it's been a hot minute since my last time, and i don't have an interest in engaging there. no promise i'll continue here or not, or look further at the thread until i'm looking for another dreamie update. altho... that said, please post here or on my nc tl if there is a dreamie update 👀

Comments

[taevachi]

Alright unrelated but lol okay. I found this post on accident in the recent posts on Dreamwidth. I have heard of lolcow.farm before due to Creepshowart, but had no idea they had a Neocities thread. So I guess you have now "cowtipped" this to me if I understood the meaning of the word correctly. ^^' I scrolled up a bit and oh-hoh, they're talking about me. Speculating that I am someone who will stop identifying as a lesbian and I am a handmaiden who caters to men. I have no idea what handmaiden means though, I don't go to these sites. Sorry to inform the ladies I am still very much a lesbian and also dating a real life (cis!) woman :( I find it a tad bit funny that the people on there will look at one post from a person and come to these frankly delusional conclusions about them.

As for the webring, I'm definitely terminally online enough to have quickly noticed what it's about, but wouldn't blame someone for not catching it. I'm not sure if people in the thread know that people have talked about this webring on other places like Melonland on multiple occasions, calling it a terf thing.

Dang they really don't seem to like me though. Commenting this probably will mean nothing but I truly found it funny enough I wanted to point this out... Maybe even show these accusations to my girlfriend so we can laugh at them together :D

[sinew]

oh wow, ain't it funny how things happen and cycle around!

"they're talking about me"



i'm sorry you found out in such a wild way 😭

i think it's a reference to the film the handmaiden, so i think it may be slang for a lesbian?

on nc someone told me they're making personal insults about me and saying i'm inciting harassment, meanwhile i've got a couple of them on my site's cbox pulling ostrich and save the children arguments with no mention any of the members are being harassed, so it's par for the course lol

oh yeah, now that the post has been up a little while i've encountered several people who were unaware

"I'm not sure if people in the thread know that people have talked about this webring on other places like Melonland on multiple occasions, calling it a terf thing"

ok... this Piques my Interest 👀 mind if i ask if you know anything more about this or have any links? i find it interesting that i've been informed the secrecy of it was to protect people from harassment, and then it turns out it's just... obvious to other parties even without the direct quotes from the thread

also omg is that a jc icon lol

[silvernheart]

thanks for the information. i'm not really keen on the social aspects of neocities so i'm generally out of the loop on who to avoid on there, so posts like this are good for keeping me updated.

that said, i think this is a good example of why being aware of terf rhetoric is so important. the screenshots and text from the webring site itself parsed to me as terf dogwhistles the moment i read them, but i'm also familiar with and actively vigilant against their bs. it's really important people learn to be wary of things like "adult female" especially in contexts like a webring for women; as shown, it's very easy to be drawn in otherwise...

[sinew]

i'm glad if it was helpful!

oooof, you're at least the third person to tell me about the dogwhistles that i wasn't aware of before i'd seen stuff put plainly in the thread 😳

[silvernheart]

oh, sorry i didn't mean to add to the pile there! or come across as shaming or anything, nobody knows everything and dogwhistles are explicitly made to sound innocent or have a plausible innocent meaning. i don't think anyone's a bad person for not already knowing about every verbal trick, my intent was just to emphasize i think knowing about them is important in general.

also, i could've sworn i checked the direct links to the webring itself and they still listed "adult female" on the home page, then i checked again a bit later and they all said "adult woman." the bastards are still trying to bury their true intent as people become wise to them... disgusting behavior.

[sinew]

oh no worries! i think i didn't convey what i meant very well, that being that several people separately from each other were able to recognize it for it was, ie they were definitely using dogwhistles

although i hadn't personally known about these particular ones, and it's always good to be informed!

oh yes, someone mentioned to me that the wording had been changed (although she was inclined to believe it was genuine betterment rather than rug-sweeping), so while it's no longer up i can at least confirm for you that it did say "female" in the past

[(Anonymous)]

Hi from neocities! I thought you should know the mod said like-minded for nerdy stuff and your reading too much into that.

[sinew]

hiya! okay, thanks for the update

i went to see what you're talking about, and i'm assuming it's this from the latest version of the thread:

Anonymous 10/18/23 (Wed) 08:56:14 AM No. 1730218
>>1730200
I added "like-minded" for…like-minded women into nerdy and dorky things like web dev, internet culture, video games, etc. I don't know why she read so much into that word kek

ironically this post only confirms i'm not, lol. here's the mod having a chance to deny anything else quoted in the article, but instead of doing that she zeroes in on denying this context-based dogwhistle. meanwhile, if the webring is meant for women in general, on the basis of being simply being women, women aren't a hivemind and can have various interests and their website can reflect that. it's supposedly just for women, not nerdy women, not dorky women, not women who are web designers, not women into internet culture, not for women into video games. just women

so in that case, what is "like-minded" supposed to mean? also note that this explanation isn't on the ring's site. either she didn't think through the implications of saying here it's for women who are into __ over just women in general, or... it's another dogwhistle 🤷‍♀️

please don't post stuff from the thread further. i got what i needed from the thread and don't really care past that. for the sake of not ignoring what i'm assuming is your good-faith attempt at giving benefit of the doubt, i'm responding to this specific comment, but in the future i probably won't respond to anons. i'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that this wasn't an attempt at milking

[taevachi]

Quite unfortunate to see that Neocities has just become this now, it's no different from Twitter and other such places.

And yes indeed it is a Jiang Cheng :D

If being secretly terf-y or "biological woman" or whatever webring was the idea, the cat has indeed been out of the bag for months at this point. I remember some thread on Melonland where it was brought up that people seem to have linked to terfs' websites without knowing they're terfs. People who wouldn't want to have anything to do with them. The webring might've been mentioned as well in that thread if I remember correctly. Then, in the webring/communities subforum there is a thread for the Ladies of the Links webring which, indeed, was created to be a trans-inclusive response to the Women of the Internet webring. I think the guy who holds the webring masterlist, brisray or something like that, also mentioned that he was aware of what people had criticized about the Women of the Internet webring (this was in the general webrings thread on the forum if, again, I remember correctly).

So not only is the nature of the ring obvious to many, but some of the websites on it have also been clocked as terf-owned by people a long time ago.

[sinew]

i wouldn't say it's neocities, but the overlap of users from both platforms

oh wow

brisray: I think some people here have had a few problems with one of the feminist webring forums. Some of the active members of that are not at all LGBTQ+ friendly (terfs) and some of them are vile. The sites in the ring do not appear to express such views and that's why it is still listed in my webring list. If that changes then I'll think about removing it. Life's too short to be bothered with such narrow-minded people.